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Task #2952: Evaluate Discourse

Task #3246: Discourse to mailing list bridge

Bridging mailing lists to Discourse

Added by Sophie Gautier 11 months ago. Updated 6 months ago.

Status:
New
Priority:
Normal
Category:
-
Target version:
-
Start date:
Due date:
% Done:

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Description

This task is to bridge:
  • users mailing lists to Ask
    Discussing it with Guilhem, it seems not possible to pass tags by mail.
    It's also unclear how to consolidate the list's subscribers with the Discourse user base. There is a difference in granularity of subscriptions between mailing lists and Discourse so we will have to test it.
  • we should also test moderation for the different subcategories
  • another point unclear for the moment is the import of previous messages or the use of the list archives

Guilhem will give it a test with 2.8 upgrade and create a list for testing purpose by the community.
The users mailing lists will be bridge later in a second time.

Actions #1

Updated by Heiko Tietze 11 months ago

Is this bridge supposed to work one-way meaning you email a question to the ask-board (lazy people wont check Q&A first) or get a notification on replies (should work)? If it works in both directions and we talk about discussions related to design/UX, what is the advantage over the mailing list (kind of Nabble archive maybe).

Actions #2

Updated by Sophie Gautier 11 months ago

Heiko Tietze wrote in #note-1:

Is this bridge supposed to work one-way meaning you email a question to the ask-board (lazy people wont check Q&A first) or get a notification on replies (should work)? If it works in both directions and we talk about discussions related to design/UX, what is the advantage over the mailing list (kind of Nabble archive maybe).

It should work both ways, just like Nabble did. The advantage is to attract contributors who don't like mailing lists. Usually the younger contributors are more used to forums than mailing lists. There is also more possibilities to layout your posts (add graphics, images, screenshots) which could be an advantage in UX/design discussions.

Actions #3

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 9 months ago

Finished the test subsite setup during the week-end. It's live at https://communitytest.documentfoundation.org and everyone with an SSO account should be able to log in. (Need to emphasize that it's a test site and all changes, posts, edits there will be nuked later.) There are currently 3 categories cat[1-3] with incoming respective addresses etc.

Should I proceed with the creation of test mailing lists too? Stubled on this by the way https://meta.discourse.org/t/creating-a-read-only-mailing-list-mirror/77990 . But it seems mostly useful if we want to use Discourse for read-only HTML archives. So far I haven't found a sane way to allow posting both by mail and through the Discourse web interface.

Actions #4

Updated by Sophie Gautier 9 months ago

Guilhem Moulin wrote in #note-3:

Finished the test subsite setup during the week-end. It's live at https://communitytest.documentfoundation.org and everyone with an SSO account should be able to log in. (Need to emphasize that it's a test site and all changes, posts, edits there will be nuked later.) There are currently 3 categories cat[1-3] with incoming respective addresses etc.

Thank you so much!

Should I proceed with the creation of test mailing lists too?

Yes please

Stubled on this by the way https://meta.discourse.org/t/creating-a-read-only-mailing-list-mirror/77990 . But it seems mostly useful if >we want to use Discourse for read-only HTML archives. So far I haven't found a sane way to allow posting both by mail and through the >Discourse web interface.

I'm not sure I understand your last sentence, you mean Discourse doesn't send mails to a list?
For information I've found this how-to, maybe it's interesting for you https://meta.discourse.org/t/direct-delivery-incoming-email-for-self-hosted-sites/49487

Actions #5

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 9 months ago

Sophie Gautier wrote in #note-4:

Should I proceed with the creation of test mailing lists too?

Yes please

Done: , and . The latter list is bridged to cat3 which is a read-only mirror of the list archives.

Stubled on this by the way https://meta.discourse.org/t/creating-a-read-only-mailing-list-mirror/77990 . But it seems mostly useful if >we want to use Discourse for read-only HTML archives. So far I haven't found a sane way to allow posting both by mail and through the >Discourse web interface.

I'm not sure I understand your last sentence, you mean Discourse doesn't send mails to a list?

Discourse does send notifications, but AFAIK it assumes that recipients are controlled by single users. There are for instance direct links to manage account preferences there. But that's something to experiment and test, that's the raison d'être of that instance after all :-)

For information I've found this how-to, maybe it's interesting for you https://meta.discourse.org/t/direct-delivery-incoming-email-for-self-hosted-sites/49487

That link is for incoming mails (new topics as well as replies). Both AskLibO and the new site are already configured accordingly :-)

Actions #6

Updated by Sophie Gautier 9 months ago

Hi Guilhem,
Some feedback from Pierre-Yves:
---------------------------
FYI. I am subscribed to the documentation list and I tried to post here by email.

The first test sent to  was not rejected but does not appear in the messages received here.
The second test sent to sends me back by email the message :
We’re sorry, but your email message to [“cat1 at communitytest.documentfoundation dot org”] (titled Test discourse) didn’t work.
Your account does not have the required trust level to post new topics to this email address. If you believe this is an error, contact a staff member.

Best regards
Pierre-Yves
--------------------------------
For information, I moderated his message to deliver it, the same as with Simon and mine which correctly appeared on the category.

Actions #7

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 9 months ago

Sophie Gautier wrote in #note-6:

The first test sent to was not rejected but does not appear in the messages received here.

Only cat3 is bridged at the moment :-) see https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/3567#note-5

The second test sent to sends me back by email the message :

We’re sorry, but your email message to [“cat1 at communitytest.documentfoundation dot org”] (titled Test discourse) didn’t work.
Your account does not have the required trust level to post new topics to this email address. If you believe this is an error, contact a staff member.

I suppose the difference is that Pierre-Yves' account was created before the mail went out. [The opposite — what Simon did AFAICT — would have staged the account and let the email through.) It probably makes sense to allow everyone to create new accounts here so I lowered email_in_min_trust to 0 from 2.

Actions #8

Updated by Sophie Gautier 8 months ago

Hi Guilhem,
Could you try to bridge test1 as per Brett request on the website list. It seems also he was not able to create a new topic.
I saw that Pierre-Yves has tried to send a message with an attachment, I moderated it but can't see the message on the forum, is it because of the .png he joined?

Actions #9

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 8 months ago

Sophie Gautier wrote in #note-8:

Could you try to bridge test1

How would you like me to bridge it? (As I wrote in #note-3 I haven't found a sane way to allow posting both by mail and through the Discourse web interface.)

I saw that Pierre-Yves has tried to send a message with an attachment, I moderated it but can't see the message on the forum, is it because of the .png he joined?

The message was sent to community-test1@ and was delivered (without attachment though) to the list but doesn't show up on discourse because the list isn't bridged to catX.

Actions #10

Updated by Sophie Gautier 8 months ago

So an update as we discussed it together with Guilhem today:
Technically, it's not possible to bridge mailing lists and Discourse two ways (and reading Discourse help and forum, it seems that's what is wanted mainstream).
But to answer the requests from the community, what we can do is to import some mailing lists to Discourse and mass subscribe contributors with SSO accounts. Contributors who wish it can interact with the forum via e-mail, just like on Ask.
Now, we have to decide with the community which mailing lists to import. Do I forget something?

Actions #11

Updated by Sophie Gautier 8 months ago

Hi Guilhem,
Olivier has requested to have ODF and PDF file formats available, is it already the case or is there a special setting for that? Thanks in advance.

Actions #12

Updated by Olivier Hallot 8 months ago

Actually, it is important since people interchange sample files.

The list of all accepted file formats by LibreOffice is listed in the Help

https://help.libreoffice.org/master/en-US/text/shared/guide/convertfilters.html?DbPAR=SHARED#bm_000base

But Infra has the final word, for security reasons I think.

Actions #13

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 8 months ago

Forgot to adjust the setting so it was left to the default value which doesn't include these extensions :-p I now set it to the same value we use for AskLibO.

Actions #14

Updated by Sophie Gautier 8 months ago

Guilhem Moulin wrote in #note-13:

Forgot to adjust the setting so it was left to the default value which doesn't include these extensions :-p I now set it to the same value we use for AskLibO.

Thank you!

Actions #15

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 8 months ago

Sophie Gautier wrote in #note-10:

Technically, it's not possible to bridge mailing lists and Discourse two ways (and reading Discourse help and forum, it seems that's what is wanted mainstream).
But to answer the requests from the community, what we can do is to import some mailing lists to Discourse and mass subscribe contributors with SSO accounts. Contributors who wish it can interact with the forum via e-mail, just like on Ask.
Now, we have to decide with the community which mailing lists to import. Do I forget something?

I think that's a good summary :-) Maybe one point to emphasize is that the decision is done on a per-list basis, and different lists (categories) can have different import & posting policies. Here are some workflow suggestions (just for the sake of example, it's up to list moderators and subscribers to decide what's best for a given list):

  • Announce lists: preserve the list but use Discourse for a read-only mirror (à la cat3 in the test instance). Folks can decide whether to subscribe to the mailing lists, or to add the announce (sub-)categories to their watchlist on the Discourse side. Announce posters will keep posting to the lists just like they're doing now.
  • Discussion lists: Provision Discourse accounts for all subscribers, adjust watchlists so all subscribers & digesters get email notifications as before, and close the mailing list. (It remains to be seen if we can import existing archives to Discourse in a sane way. In the worst case we'll just preserve archives as they are today and start new categories.) We can bounce listname+subscribe@ etc. with a URL pointing to the a migration post. We can preserve the list address listname@ so new list postings yield new topics; the downside is that replies to old posts (preceding the migration) will end up creating new topics rather than follow-up posts; I expect it to be problematic only for a few days/weeks and moderators might need to move posts around as the dust settles, but if it's too much of a problem I can write a milter to bounce all incoming posts with a In-Reply-To (that is, replies to the list address — replies to Discourse notification mails are unaffected) for a while. That workflow is also suitable for announce lists since we categories can be locked down (and/or have fine grain controls such as automatically close topics after a while, delete old comments, have the ability to mark a reply as a solution, etc.).
  • For some lists it might make sense to keep things as is and ignore Discourse altogether.

Subscribers will be merged based on the information we have on SSO, so it won't be possible anymore to use say a @documentfoundation.org address for some categories, @libreoffice.org for other categories, and @example.net address for yet other categories: it'll be a single persona across the whole instance. For those who aren't in SSO yet we'll provision accounts with an arbitrary username and automatically link them when they come back, much like we're doing for AskLibO.

Actions #16

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 8 months ago

I imported the archives of a few lists to the test instance: announce, board-discuss, documentation, l10n, users, as well as users-de and users-fr to check encoding issues. These are only examples, it's up to the list moderators and subscribers if they want to switch over to discourse or not :-) Some notes and observations:

text/plain attachments were inline on the list archives but on Discourse they are not, instead a download link is included. On the other hand images are inline. Example of posts with attachments:

The import logic relies on In-Reply-To: and References: (as fallback) headers to properly thread posts. Unfortunately not all clients set these properly, so in some cases posts are split across ≥2 topics. (It's also the case for listarchives.tdf.io.) That's why we have 3 topics “[VOTE] approval of preliminary budget for 2022” on board-discuss.

In an email-based workflow when one wants to take a tangent it's common to amend the subject within one thread, for instance "Subject: Foobar (was: stuff)". Thorsten seems to do that quite a lot in particular, see https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/2022/threads.html . But I couldn't find a sane heuristic to decide when to create a new topic or not, so at the moment 1 thread ≡ 1 topic and subject adjustments are lost on the discourse side (this is also true for [DECISION] marks within a thread).

Discourse has some builtin trimming and reflow logic for incoming emails, which I replicated when importing; among other things, this removes signatures and the quoted message for top posters. However that logic is not foolproof, and can yield weird-looking or missing posts such as https://communitytest.documentfoundation.org/t/hola . (In this case our HTML archives have the same problem though, see https://listarchives.tdf.io/i/19DjiIbS7VPbsa2Aj3ObOZ7W . Probably an issue with the author's MUA.) In other cases the entire message is lost, for instance for inline replies of a message that looks like a forward such as https://listarchives.tdf.io/i/WCKmO905mikHzfvKBFE-tPH6 which doesn't show up in https://communitytest.documentfoundation.org/t/why-is-the-first-page-always-loaded . I'm not sure how much effort should we put into trying to make the heuristic more robust, after all Discourse will trim incoming messages in the same way… If data loss is a blocker we can add an elision at the bottom of the post with the trimmed content.

Attribution is tricky, because on the mailing list side we have “From: Foo Bar <>” while on discourse we need a unique username without email collision. I used whatever information we had had in LDAP to merge and name accounts. So if LDAP user ‘xyz’ has email addresses <> and <>, then a Discourse account ‘xyz’ is created and all posts to either address are attributed to it. If that person also posted as “From: Foo Bar <>” but forgot to add it at https://user.documentfoundation.org we can't link these. Instead a separate account is created for posts with that last address, typically with username ‘Foo_Bar’ (or ‘Foo_Bar1’ if the username is taken).

Actions #17

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 8 months ago

Guilhem Moulin wrote in #note-16:

If data loss is a blocker we can add an elision at the bottom of the post with the trimmed content.

Ah no I have a better idea, when the mangled result is empty we can simply replaced with the trimmed content. Did that for users-de and users. For instance https://listarchives.tdf.io/i/g6BuWZESeflqkomY1tNPwx3O , which has no non trivial content, is shown as such at https://communitytest.documentfoundation.org/t/impress-aufgabenbereich . In cases where the Discourse mangling logic fails and produces an empty response, for instance https://listarchives.tdf.io/i/V-ZpOxT5nNnwnvNsk9PqK4p- , we end up with a weird looking post https://communitytest.documentfoundation.org/t/in-mehreren-tabellen-suchen-funktioniert-nicht which is arguably better than skipping it.

Some mailing posts are empty for real though, for instance https://listarchives.tdf.io/i/ZlU5d5tTCR1sZhXWkjDv3m9- . These were not imported.

Actions #18

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 8 months ago

As a Discourse substitute to list owners and moderators, I propose to use Category Moderators: https://meta.discourse.org/t/category-moderator-improvements/158628 . Among other things, AFAICT these have the ability to edit posts, close topics, move posts between topics, and moderate/review queued posts in specific categories. (We probably don't want to make all of them global moderator — aka “staff” — since that roles gives extra permissions such as viewing one's email address or delete users.)

And I don't think we can import the subscriber list in a 1:1 fashion. On the mlmmj side there are 3 kinds of “subscribers”:

  • “regulars“, who receive a separate mail for each post to the list);
  • “digesters”, who receive a weekly emails containing with the bulk of the activity since last time; and
  • “nomailers”, who can post to the list without ending in the moderation queue, but who don't receive list posts).

On the Discourse side notification preferences are a bit different, one can set the following on a per-category basis:

  • “watch”, to be notified of all new posts and topics (and add a post count next to each topic);
  • “track”, to add a post count next to each topic;
  • “watch first post”, to be notified of all first posts (new topics) — if the post sounds interesting and one starts reading online, Discourse will automatically add the topic to the watch list; and
  • “mute”, to silence notification for topics and posts under that category, and remove them from the listing in the first place.

These are per-user preferences, but of course we can preset them during the migration. In addition, there are global site options to decide which categories should be watched, tracked, muted, etc. by default.

For per-user email preferences, one can decide to receive emails only when away, never, or always. There is also also a “mailing list mode” one can set to receive emails for each post, but that's a global option and don't have category granularity.

I guess the simplest is to ignore “nomailers” (anyone with an account can post, after all) and for “regulars”, add the category to their watchlist and leave the email frequency to the default (so by default they won't get email notifications when logged in). But I'm not sure what to do about “digesters”; Discourse has the ability to send a weekly summary of “popular topics and replies” when one doesn't log in, but that's not the same as a full digest post, and it applies to the entire site (minus muted categories I guess) so AFAICT it's not possible to opt in for a weekly digest of a given category. Fortunately “digesters” are not many, maybe the simplest is to add their respective categories to the *track*list and poke them to point at the Discourse interface where they can finetune their notification preferences.

Also, one should note that filters recipient side will need to be adjusted because Discourse doesn't set the List-Id and has different To/Cc RFC5322 headers. Hopefully it's fine if the migration is communicated to subscribers beforehand :-)

Actions #19

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 7 months ago

Forgot to add, to avoid breaking links when migrating list archives we'll add redirection rules from each listarchives.tdf.io message to their imported counterpart on the Discourse site.

Actions #20

Updated by Sophie Gautier 7 months ago

Here is the answer from Olivier:

-----------------------------------------------------
HI Sophie

Em 06/05/2022 06:19, sophi escreveu:

Hi Olivier,

Here are some questions we will need answers to proceed to the creation of your category/sub-categories on Discourse/Community forum. Please discuss them with your community and let me know the out-come. As a reminder, the migration is scheduled for early June.

On categories/subcategories:
To create the categories you need on the Discourse Community instance, we would like to know:
- will you use category only?

"Português"
sub category: "Docs", "Qualidade", "Geral"

Please avoid acronym like pt-BR which is user un-friendly.

- shall we close the mailing list after migration

No. Please leave it open for postings and legacy search. A notice on the new forum will be posted.

There is little activity in these lists and I doubt the hassle to migrate list contents worth the effort.

- what category should we create (name them as they should appear in
Community)?

In my personal opinion, there should be only one category ("Português") because pt-BR and pt-PT are so similar (like en-US and en-GB or fr-BE and fr-FR) that synergy can build with a broader Portuguese speaking audience. That is what we did in ask, where pt-BR and pt-PT were only one.

So I prefer a "Português" (Portuguese) main category with subcategories as listed above: "Docs", "Qualidade", "Geral".

- what sub categories should we create (name them as they should appear in Community)? Note there is no third level categories.

"Docs", "Qualidade", "Geral".

- what color do you want for your category?

Gold (light orange, medium yellow). If unavailable, then green.

On subscription/preferences
Now, there are several options that can help the migration. All these
options are accessible in the preferences, but please let us know what we should do:

- shall we mass subscribe mailing list users to Community?

No. It will spam dozens of dormant accounts. Let users find their way by themselves, the telegram groups are extremely active in helping users.

If yes, could you notify them to create a SSO account if it's not already done. And in case they use different mail addresses, to add them all at https://user.documentfoundation.org/edit

No. On forum launch I'll write a mailing to the mailing list informing the new forum and giving instruction on how to access the new service.

- shall we preset the category too in the watched list for "regulars" and "digesters" subscribers. That means that they will receive email notifications for each post under a watched category.

No. Leave that choice to the user. We can leave instructions as fixed posts on how to manage forum mailing.

Note that it's not possible to send digest mails, instead it's one
message per post, one message for each new thread, or no notifications
at all.

ack.

- nomailers subscribers will be ignored as there is not this possibility on Discourse. Please inform your community

I'll do.

- who should we subscribe to the category moderators.

For all Portuguese
ohallot
gbpacheco
schiavinatto
elianedomingos

On migrating archives:
- do you want the archive of the list to be migrated to your category and subcategories

No

Do you see other settings/options that could help your migration?

Not for the moment.

Regards
Olivier
---------------------------------------------------------

Actions #21

Updated by Olivier Hallot 6 months ago

Feedback from DOcumentation team

-----------------8<-------------
(flywire)

I'm looking forward to Discourse replacing the mailing list.

Suggested features:

1. All email notifications turned off except any threads subscribed to
2. Optional thread subscriptions: I post to, mentioning my username,
containing selected tags (eg base documentation)
3. Default English filter
4. Attach documents and inline images
5. Emojis on posts, at least a GitHub subset, rather than just love
6. Specific documentation of the rules coded into the site (eg
https://communitytest.documentfoundation.org/t/re-test-document-foundation-community-email-issue-posting-error/33
)
7. Direct https://ask.libreoffice.org/ link

Works find with Brave although Brave does not support translation.

-----------------8<-------------
Peter Schofield

This looks good as it does give the progress of a document on its journey to publication.

The only comment I can make is about the little indicators used for the people involved for each item. Suggest an empty circle with the initials of the user inside. For me that would be PS. The colour fill used does make the initials difficult to see on my monitor.

-----------------8<-------------
Vasudev:

Greetings - I think the tool is similar to (ask.libreoffice). Please find my thoughts:

1) Subscription mode: Allow the user to decide.

2) The Doc mailing list should be kept open for a limited time with an auto-response detailing this transition in English and their regional language (localization).

3) Yes, subcategories are easier for grouping the topics. For example, categorizing the topics as in Writer-GS, Writer-UG, UserFeedback, with tags as the release versions DocMeet, Automation will improve the user journey scenarios.

Thank you

-Dev

-----------------8<-------------

Actions #22

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 6 months ago

Sophie Gautier wrote in #note-20:

So I prefer a "Português" (Portuguese) main category with subcategories as listed above: "Docs", "Qualidade", "Geral".

Done

- who should we subscribe to the category moderators.

For all Portuguese
ohallot
gbpacheco
schiavinatto
elianedomingos

Since archives have not been migrates these accounts are not provisioned. I can adjust ACLs but they'll need to log in first.

Actions #23

Updated by Sophie Gautier 6 months ago

Thank you Guilhem, I've also pinged the Spanish community to get their feedback.

Actions #24

Updated by Sophie Gautier 6 months ago

Here is the feedback from Celia for the Spanish community:
-------------------------------------------
»About categories/subcategories:

»To create the categories you need in the Discourse Community instance, we would like to know:

- Will you use only categories?
Celia: No, we want to be able to create labels, too.
- Should we close the mailing list after migration?
Celia: Yes, and leave it in read-only mode, please (as a historical file).
- What category should we create (name them as they should appear in Community)?
Celia: We have agreed that we will start with only two categories called "Documentación" and "Localización" and "Archivo", and as subcategories or more categories are needed, we will create them. We want to start small and grow organically.
- What subcategories should we create (name them as they should appear in the Community)? Please note that there are no third level categories.
- What color do you want for your category?
Green (the color of LibreOffice)

»About subscription/preferences
»Now, there are several options that can help the migration. All of these options are accessible in the preferences, but let us know what we need to do:

- Should we massively subscribe the users of the mailing list to the Community?
NO, we don't want to.
- Should we preset the category in the watch list for "regulars" and "activity digest" subscribers? That means they will receive email notifications for every post in a viewed category. Note that it is not possible to send summary emails, but rather one message per post, one message per new thread, or no notifications at all.

Each one should be configured to their liking.

- Subscribers of nomailers will be ignored since this possibility does not exist in Discourse. Please inform your community
Celia: Correct. I'll report.
- Who should we subscribe to the moderators of the category?
Celia Palacios (Lobaluna), Juan Carlos Sanz, and Daniel Armando Rodríguez

»About file migration:
- Do you want the list file to be migrated to your category and subcategories?
Celia: Yes, to the “Archivo” category.

»Do you see other settings/options that could help your migration?
For more details, please read:
https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/3567#note-15 and more for mail archives and subscribers."
We don't think anything at the moment.

Actions #25

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 6 months ago

Sophie Gautier wrote in #note-24:

- Will you use only categories?
Celia: No, we want to be able to create labels, too.

I think the question was “Will you use only Discourse?” no? (So perhaps redundant with the next one.) Any regular Discourse user (TL≥3) can create tags.

- Should we close the mailing list after migration?
Celia: Yes, and leave it in read-only mode, please (as a historical file).

We'll remove HTML archives after the import but also add redirect rules to the relevant Discourse post.

- What category should we create (name them as they should appear in Community)?
Celia: We have agreed that we will start with only two categories called "Documentación" and "Localización" and "Archivo", and as subcategories or more categories are needed, we will create them. We want to start small and grow organically.

These should probably be subcategories under a “Spanish” category or something. Having all categories at the root would “pollute” the list, that's why we want to use subcategories in the first place :-)

- Should we preset the category in the watch list for "regulars" and "activity digest" subscribers? That means they will receive email notifications for every post in a viewed category. Note that it is not possible to send summary emails, but rather one message per post, one message per new thread, or no notifications at all.

Each one should be configured to their liking.

You mean imported accounts should have notifications turned off? (We need to provision accounts for proper attribution of imported archives, see the test instance for an example.)

- Who should we subscribe to the moderators of the category?
Celia Palacios (Lobaluna), Juan Carlos Sanz, and Daniel Armando Rodríguez

All 3, please log in to the instance so accounts are created :-)

»About file migration:
- Do you want the list file to be migrated to your category and subcategories?
Celia: Yes, to the “Archivo” category.

Which lists should be imported? Imported multiple lists as subcategories under “Archivo” isn't possible since there are no 3rd-level categories. Note that it's possible to import, say archives to “Spanish » Localización” and take it from there, so older posts are imported from mail archives and newer posts are posted from Discourse. Can do a test import to the test instance if you want to see how that would look.

Actions #26

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 6 months ago

Guilhem Moulin wrote in #note-25:

Sophie Gautier wrote in #note-24:

- Who should we subscribe to the moderators of the category?
Celia Palacios (Lobaluna), Juan Carlos Sanz, and Daniel Armando Rodríguez

All 3, please log in to the instance so accounts are created :-)

Also a list of SSO usernames or email addresses would be more helpful than display names :-)

Actions #27

Updated by Sophie Gautier 6 months ago

Here are the answers from the Spanish community:

Celia: will use only Discourse

We'll remove HTML archives after the import, but also add redirect rules to the relevant Discourse post.

Celia: I do not understand what do you mean about adding redirect rules to Discourse posts if you remove the HTML archives. Please explain a bit longer.

Each one should be configured to their liking.

Celia: What we mean is to preset the Spanish category as default for new installations notifications settings of Discourse. Later we can advise others if they want to change it. Some of us mingle around English, Spanish, maybe Portuguese and French categories. If possible, we want to configure this later, at each one's liking. In my case, for example, I will turn off all notifications.
Celia: In other instances of Discourse I have seen summary emails: for example, that for Hugo framework, and Mabox distro, too.

You mean imported accounts should have notifications turned off? (We need to provision accounts for proper attribution of imported archives, see the test instance for an example.)

Celia: In the same way the default installation is set for notifications, please. My account, for example, shows notifications on. I believe it is the default setting.

Celia: As Sophie pointed me out, please procceed as you state here in your message:
archives to "Spanish » Localización" , and
archives to "Spanish » Documentación".

Moderators:
Daniel, , drodriguez
Juan Carlos, , jucasa
Celia, , LobaLuna

Actions #28

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 6 months ago

Sophie Gautier wrote in #note-27:

We'll remove HTML archives after the import, but also add redirect rules to the relevant Discourse post.

Celia: I do not understand what do you mean about adding redirect rules to Discourse posts if you remove the HTML archives. Please explain a bit longer.

Taking the test site as an example: https://listarchives.tdf.io/i/C4xlqjLh_nPkQBQ06Aq-edee and https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/2022/msg00129.html will be replaced with redirects to https://communitytest.documentfoundation.org/t/new-hungarian-translator/23940/2 . So when one visits old (pre-migration) list archives, for instance from a link in the wiki or blog, they will see the message as imported in Discourse instead. That way we consolidate the list archives rather than duplicate it.

Each one should be configured to their liking.

Celia: What we mean is to preset the Spanish category as default for new installations notifications settings of Discourse. Later we can advise others if they want to change it. Some of us mingle around English, Spanish, maybe Portuguese and French categories. If possible, we want to configure this later, at each one's liking. In my case, for example, I will turn off all notifications.
Celia: In other instances of Discourse I have seen summary emails: for example, that for Hugo framework, and Mabox distro, too.

You mean imported accounts should have notifications turned off? (We need to provision accounts for proper attribution of imported archives, see the test instance for an example.)

Celia: In the same way the default installation is set for notifications, please. My account, for example, shows notifications on. I believe it is the default setting.

This is turned off by default on that instance — see https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/3567#note-18 for the rationale.

Celia: As Sophie pointed me out, please procceed as you state here in your message:
archives to "Spanish » Localización" , and
archives to "Spanish » Documentación".

OK, I'll close these mailing lists and proceed with the import tonight Jun 08 at 00:00 CEST.

Moderators:
[…]

Thanks, granted!

Actions #29

Updated by Olivier Hallot 6 months ago

About global "documentation" forum, it is clear to release.

The mail address to send anonymous (unregistered and thus moderated) mails to the forum shall be "".

I can be the moderator: (ohallot)

Actions #30

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 6 months ago

Olivier Hallot wrote in #note-29:

About global "documentation" forum, it is clear to release.

Please reply following the Q&A/form Sophie prepared so we can see how to proceed.

Actions #31

Updated by Olivier Hallot 6 months ago

1) Do you want an automatic subscription to the forum, based on the current subscription of the DOc' mailing list?

YES

2) The current doc mailing list contents has been imported to the test site and will be imported to the production forum. Therefore:

+ Shall we close the doc mailing list (no more posts there)?

YES

3) We can have one main category "Documentation" and several subcategories. For example, the subcategories could be "Guides" and "Help".

Documentation is the main category

sub categories
General (will receive the legacy mailing list), e-mail is
LibreOffice Guides , e-mail is
LibreOffice Help , email is

Color is Purple

Actions #32

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 6 months ago

Olivier Hallot wrote in #note-31:

2) The current doc mailing list contents has been imported to the test site and will be imported to the production forum. Therefore:

+ Shall we close the doc mailing list (no more posts there)?

YES

Do you have a desired time for that? AFAICT there is significant traffic on that list (140 messages in May, 35 so far in June).

3) We can have one main category "Documentation" and several subcategories. For example, the subcategories could be "Guides" and "Help".

Documentation is the main category

sub categories
General (will receive the legacy mailing list), e-mail is
LibreOffice Guides , e-mail is
LibreOffice Help , email is

Hmm for symmetry I think I would make more sense to to use English as main category. Any opinion, Sophie Gautier? (In that case, the LibreOffice Guides and Help will need another parent since Discourse doesn't support 3rd-level categories at the moment.)

Actions #33

Updated by Olivier Hallot 6 months ago

desired time: 3 months.
Most of the recent mails are from people that knows about the new forum.

Not sure why put documentation below English. Please don't.

Actions #34

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 6 months ago

Olivier Hallot wrote in #note-33:

desired time: 3 months.

You want the migration to happen 3 months from now? The Discourse setup, list closing and archive import is done atomically. Can't import archives now and leave the list open for some time.

Not sure why put documentation below English.

As said, for symmetry with Portuguese » Documentation and similar. AskLibO has a similar structure.

Actions #35

Updated by Sophie Gautier 6 months ago

Guilhem Moulin wrote in #note-34:

Olivier Hallot wrote in #note-33:

Not sure why put documentation below English.

As said, for symmetry with Portuguese » Documentation and similar. AskLibO has a similar structure.

I think we can go with Documentation, UX/Design, l10n as main categories because we can't have third level categories. The best would have been to have a main category with Native Language communities/Spanish/Documentacion and International communities/Documentation, but this is not possible. I think once the instance will be populated with more NLPs and International projects, it will become clear for contributors where to go.
What we can do is to differentiate by color. Currently main category color of NLPs is blue, maybe we can have green for I18n projects? Would that be ok for you Guilhem?

Actions #36

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 6 months ago

Sophie Gautier wrote in #note-35:

I think we can go with Documentation, UX/Design, l10n as main categories because we can't have third level categories. The best would have been to have a main category with Native Language communities/Spanish/Documentacion and International communities/Documentation, but this is not possible. I think once the instance will be populated with more NLPs and International projects, it will become clear for contributors where to go.
What we can do is to differentiate by color. Currently main category color of NLPs is blue, maybe we can have green for I18n projects? Would that be ok for you Guilhem?

Sure, whatever you think is best :-) So Olivier, please tell when you want me to proceed with the import + list closing (again this is atomic so probably needs to be communicated to list subscribers).

Actions #37

Updated by Olivier Hallot 6 months ago

Sure, whatever you think is best :-) So Olivier, please tell when you want me to proceed with the import + list closing (again this is atomic so probably needs to be communicated to list subscribers).

Sophie is right on having l10n, Doc, UX as main categories.

For the date to close the documentation list and migrate, can it be done in June 18th (Saturday)? I'll announce it to the list as soon as you confirm your agreement.

Actions #38

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 6 months ago

Olivier Hallot wrote in #note-37:

For the date to close the documentation list and migrate, can it be done in June 18th (Saturday)?

Nope, doesn't work for me at least. I'm on vacation Friday and will be AFK the coming week-end.

Actions #39

Updated by Olivier Hallot 6 months ago

Then please give me a date for your earliest convenience, but give me 2 days notice in advance to sort out the possible noise in the list.

Actions #40

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 6 months ago

Olivier Hallot wrote in #note-39:

Then please give me a date for your earliest convenience, but give me 2 days notice in advance to sort out the possible noise in the list.

June 21-23 or 27-30 evening would work. Or later in early July.

Actions #41

Updated by Olivier Hallot 6 months ago

Guilhem Moulin wrote in #note-40:

June 21-23 or 27-30 evening would work. Or later in early July.

June 21st. Please confirm, and I'll announce the migration in the list.

Actions #42

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 6 months ago

Olivier Hallot wrote in #note-41:

Guilhem Moulin wrote in #note-40:

June 21-23 or 27-30 evening would work. Or later in early July.

June 21st. Please confirm, and I'll announce the migration in the list.

Ack, at 22:00 UTC.

Actions #43

Updated by Olivier Hallot 6 months ago

About the Brazilians mailing lists:

Please freeze (no more posts allowed) to the following lists.





:

As soon as you tell me when (day /hour) you will freeze these lists, I'll immediately send a message to the lists as last post indicating the new Discourse and Ask forum.

Thank you

Actions #44

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 6 months ago

Olivier Hallot wrote in #note-43:

Please freeze (no more posts allowed) to the following lists.
[…]
As soon as you tell me when (day /hour) you will freeze these lists, I'll immediately send a message to the lists as last post indicating the new Discourse and Ask forum.

How about next Tuesday 2200 UTC? Can do that along with the other ones.

Actions #45

Updated by Olivier Hallot 6 months ago

Guilhem Moulin wrote in #note-44:

How about next Tuesday 2200 UTC? Can do that along with the other ones.

Deal. Thank you.

Actions #46

Updated by Sophie Gautier 6 months ago

So for the record, here is the mail from Heiko on the Design/UX list:
-----------------------------
  • Please create one category on Discourse "Design/UX" without any subcategory.
  • We keep the mailing list.
  • ML users should not automatically registered.

All further configuration should be possible later and on the Discourse platform.

Thanks a lot,
-----------------------------
Thanks!

Actions #47

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 6 months ago

Olivier Hallot wrote in #note-31:

1) Do you want an automatic subscription to the forum, based on the current subscription of the DOc' mailing list?

YES
[…]

+ Shall we close the doc mailing list (no more posts there)?

YES
[…]

Documentation is the main category

sub categories
General (will receive the legacy mailing list), e-mail is
LibreOffice Guides , e-mail is
LibreOffice Help , email is

Color is Purple

Done

Olivier Hallot wrote in #note-43:

About the Brazilians mailing lists:

Please freeze (no more posts allowed) to the following lists.





:

Done

Sophie Gautier wrote in #note-46:

  • Please create one category on Discourse "Design/UX" without any subcategory.

Done

Actions #48

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 6 months ago

Olivier Hallot, just a note FYI regarding Documentation » General and Português » Geral a parent category can also have posts on its own, so one could merge these into Documentation resp. Português if desired. Based on the description it seems you don't intent to allow posting there so I made them read-only for now.

ACK.

Actions #49

Updated by Sophie Gautier 6 months ago

Hi Guilhem,
When you have time, could you add Bangladesh category? here is the message from Ring

Please add our Bangladesh community in there.
We may work in General, LibreOffice Help, Localization part at present.
And in here many of us are eager to contribute with LO feature Improvement.

There is nothing to migrate as the community only have a Telegram channel at the moment. Thanks in advance!

Actions #50

Updated by Guilhem Moulin 6 months ago

Sophie Gautier wrote in #note-49:

When you have time, could you add Bangladesh category?

Done (used “Bengali“ as read-only parent because the localized languages name appears to contain glyphs unknown to the default font).

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